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The New Monastics
We dialogue with some of today's leading spiritual teachers and thinkers on all aspects of the contemplative life, with a special focus on interspirituality and new monasticism. Amid continuing changes to our spiritual and religious landscape, we explore the tenets of living a life dedicated to spiritual development and truth.
The New Monastics
New Monastics Roundtable: Space Travel with Carla Burns
In this episode, we have a roundtable discussion of spiritual issues with educator Carla Burns. In Part I, we talk about how to slow down and make the ’space’ to hold complexity in our society. In Part II, we discuss the film The Martian and what it has to say about humanity and humanity’s needs. And in Part III, we explore the idea of our planet’s consciousness and how it is expressed today.
Charis Foundation
Golden Turtle Sound
Welcome to the new Monastics podcast, where we'll be discussing all aspects of the contemplative life and inter spirituality in the context of modernity. On each episode, we will choose a topic to explore with one of today's leading teachers are thinkers. The New Monastics podcast is a project of Caras Foundation for new monasticism and inter spirituality, which is dedicated to the emergence of a newly conceived contemplative life, of embodied spirituality and sacred activism.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the new Monastics podcast. I'm Nall , co-founder of Cares Foundation and Dialogue partner for our guests.
Speaker 3:And I'm Daniel, the host for the show.
Speaker 2:Today we've invited our friend Carla Burns for another round table . Carla is core faculty at Naropa University and works for Case, the Center for Advancement of Contemplative Education.
Speaker 4:Hi.
Speaker 3:Hi, Carla. It's so lovely to have you.
Speaker 4:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:So, just a refresher for the listeners on our round table episodes. We'll each be bringing a little topic that we've been chewing on, thinking about holding, and the others will have some time to reflect, but the topics will all be a little disparate. And with that said, Carla, do you have a topic to start us off with?
Speaker 4:Yes, I do. Thank you. So I was just listening to , uh, the last podcast that you did with one of naan and i's colleagues, Lisa. And I was really inspired about all that was shared, and especially what was brought up around this idea of being able to hold complexity and the need to be able to , uh, encounter complexity and not go into extremes, especially when we're talking about spiritual teachers and spiritual practices and how we don't just solidify things as right or wrong or good or bad. And obviously that's been up not just at Nopa University and in , uh, contemplative education, but in our world in general , uh, there's a lot of, I would say, seduction to go into This is right or this is wrong. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And it was definitely mentioned around, you know, we have to be able to hold the tension and not get swayed into solidifying into those things. And then I was thinking about, but how do we, how do we actually do that? Right? Right . How do we actually begin to navigate holding complexity and why is it that it is so easy to go toward maybe what we would call , uh, in Buddhist terminology, the dim light of solidification versus more of this bright light, this expansive kind of way of being? Why do we kind of of go into narrow thinking Hmm . And what are, what are the things that we could do actually to be able to tolerate ambiguity or tolerate complexity? So obviously there's many different practices that that one can engage in, but I think for me lately in this, I would say radical sense, and we talk about this a lot in contemplative education, but just this notion of rest, like rest is , is practice mm-hmm <affirmative> . And can I actually tolerate things like complexity if I don't have time to really check out what's going on for me and to be able to rest my body and rest my system and rest my mind and be open in my sense perceptions and utilize, y'all talked about technology too, but utilize the technology of my body that's going to be , help me to be able to be attuned to, you know, what is happening in the field and to be able to hold that sort of expanse. You know, I appreciated , um, for all of you listeners out there, we started with just a simple five minutes of just stopping actually before we started. And I just noticed so much in that just like, whew , just stopping and just settling so that I could be like, well, what's, what's actually here for me? How does my heart feel right now? What's going on with my belly? Can I just like clear out for a moment all the thoughts and the ideas that I feel like I wanna just like jump into this? You know? And that impulse to just like jump in and have the thing to say and have the right answers and be the best person, you know, <laugh> , um, <laugh> , you are the best, Carla . Oh , you're the best , but what is it when I can just actually just relax. And I do have a lot of curiosity around that because even, you know, at this university that we're at, I do feel like there's a lot of pressure sometimes to just do things very quickly. Like, let's hurry up and practice and let's hurry up and heal <laugh> and let's hurry up and solve this and , uh, can you , uh, teach this online class in , uh, 15 minutes? You know? And so I am curious about this radical nature and can we actually live into these spiritual values and meet the society that is constantly wanting us to be rushed and hurried and narrow? And is that really going to be able to help us to encounter the complexity of the challenges that we're facing? So can we actually rest? Will it actually be possible? Can we be that radical? So that's what I wanted to bring to y'all today to talk about.
Speaker 2:Hmm . Thank you. Yeah . You know, one of the things I hear you saying I think is maybe that when we think about complexity, we're thinking about , um, a vast array of information and a vast array of things existing side by side . As they say in Buddhism, the 10,000 things, the 10,000 things are all present together and it's tight there, you know, everything is touching. And one of the reasons we can't hold complexity is because everything's bunched. You know, we're thinking of complexity as the bunching, but we can't hold complexity because we're bunching. So everything's too tight. Uh, our minds are too tight. Our perception of everything is claustrophobic. And I hear you saying that if we could address the tightness issue <laugh> in our own consciousness, then there might be room around things. There might be room to appreciate the complexity instead of just feeling claustrophobic by it and being driven by that claustrophobia into instantaneous reactivity. It's this, no, it's this, it's this. No, it's this. You know? 'cause that's, everything's too tight. The complexity when there's room around it is that all the 10,000 things exist next to one another, and it's not either or. It sounds like you're saying when you can get that breathing space, then you can allow things to be together instead of choosing over against one another. And that sounds pretty interesting to me. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Yeah, what you were just saying, the tunnel , the imagery of like a woven blanket was coming up for me. And how kind of single blanket is made up of those 10,000 strands and how to be functional. There has to be this kind of weaving together, but just like the weaver creates it through all the individual strands to maybe be whole and to be able to hold this complexity, we also have to tease the different strands apart. And so there's almost this process, it feels like, of unraveling something and separating it out to then be whole. Like I'm a practitioner of Tai Chi and we talk a lot about how to have integrated whole body motion. We also do a lot of practice of individual separation of the body. And so ultimately the body should all move together as one. But to actually achieve that unity of body, you need to have particular articulation of each finger in each joint, the elbow, the shoulder , and do practice where you're just looking at your shoulders to then be able to have that wholeness. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I think in what you're saying, Carla, there's this element of having to step back to see the whole picture, to then be able to dive back in. So there's all these different metaphors, but they all feel like they're speaking to a similar conglomeration of ideas. And it brings up something else for me that I'm thinking about, which is when we move slowly and we crash, it's not so bad. It's just like a bumper car. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You kinda like hit and then you can readjust. But when we're moving so fast, those crashes can be fatal. And so that need to move slowly and to continually pause, like you were saying, we started the podcast with a little pause, all the tech issues and different things that we're doing before we actually start the recording. And then it's like, okay, now let us pause instead of jumping right into the next thing. And the way in which we're constantly being driven to just jump from thing to thing to thing, or even multitasking to ridiculous kinds of degrees where we can't even focus on the one thing in front of us.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah. And I appreciate just this idea what you brought up naton of like the claustrophobia and then the threads. And it's like, I feel like lately we're just continuing to add thread on top of thread on top of thread without having any interest in what the individual threads are. Or taking time with each one of those threads to be like, you know, what's actually here? And for me, I'm putting my one hand on top of the other. And for me that that creates this kind of a flattening out for me, where we don't have like the whole view or we don't have the whole picture, and then everything is really flat. Mm . And so then in that flat way, I think then it really is easy to be like, well, this is all there is, or this is all there is and there is no dimension and there is nothing else that's here. And so where is it that with that space, you know, I teach a lot about space awareness. Uh, what is it that space can actually provide to be like, oh, you know, I might be having a reaction to something. And to me it looks all bad, but why is that? Like, what is my body telling me? Like, do I have space to let my whole body be here in that reaction? Do I have space to let my memories be here? Do I have space to let someone else's fullness or their humanity to be here? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so I think we just miss so much of what's actually really happening. We miss direct perception and direct knowing when we leave out this idea of space, the element of space in and of itself. And that's to your point, naton , just the claustrophobia of life. And then how actually dangerous that becomes when we're operating from a place of zero resource actually, because there is no nothing to breathe . Like right. When we're claustrophobic, it's like I literally can't breathe . So then of course I'm going to make rash decisions and judgements because it then becomes like a matter of survival.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. I think you named the thing about paying attention to the space. You know, if we talk about a consciousness shift, and that is what we're talking about, like the circumstances don't necessarily change. Like our lives are, you know, low time contracted and there's a lot of demands. But we, we need to do a shift in order to exist in a way that feels healthy and whole. And I wonder if it's kind of a figure ground reversal. You know, you can focus on the objects or you can focus on the space mm-hmm <affirmative> . And if you're in traffic and you see all the obstacles or you could see the openings and it , it can shift how you feel about the whole thing. Um, a friend came back from Ireland once with a gift for me, which was a wonderful Irish wool scarf, you know, that somebody had made. And you know, it was a little bit of a loose weave. And like the first day I snagged it, just one of these threads just sticking out in a big loop. And I'm like, you know , it was such a beautiful scarf, and I was immediately annoyed, <laugh>. And the person came up and said, no, no, no, you can fix that. And they took hold of the scarf and they started to tug at different areas of the scarf and just pulling on it. And because it was loose enough to tug on that thread, started to pull back in to the hole. Mm . Just by this little, let me make a little room here, let me pull here. And , and it all came back in. That was possible because the weave wasn't overtight. And this is what I'm thinking about now is like when that little thread , uh, starts to stick out, it's kind of like , um, when we have a snag in our society and we start throwing people out Yeah. You know, exiling people, these , these people no longer fit mm-hmm <affirmative> . And you know, the scarf is ruined and the whole thing <laugh> . But no , there's a way we , we can start tugging here and there to rein include them because you can't throw people away. Yeah . You know, anything that we exile in ourselves or exile out there becomes shadow. Mm . So there's something strong about this, you know, I'm sure we're not gonna solve it, but there's this thing about a figure ground reversal and making space and focusing on the space and not the issues or the objects. Mm-hmm . And it might help us. Mm-hmm <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:And Carla , when you were bringing up the space awareness, I was thinking about the times I've been lucky enough to be led in that by you and how powerful it was as a practice. And one thing I really appreciated about it was the play with perspective. That in this kind of practice, you were leading us to really large perspectives and doing things like looking from above and viewing our entire body and then zooming in into really small areas and this play of big perspective and narrow perspective. And at the top we were talking about the kind of danger of narrow perspective, but now I'm thinking how both are really integral. How sometimes we need to zoom really tightly in and focus on a single cell, but then we need to zoom out and view the Milky Way mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And how at different perspectives, different things become clear and different things become occluded. Like when we're zoomed in, we can't see the large perspective, but from the large perspective, we can't see the nitty gritty details. And how, to your point, it's not one or the other. We need both. And how that play of perspective is so important. And so maybe in response to the original kind of question, one answer I guess, <laugh> is that kind of playing with our own perspective in minds of stepping in and stepping out and stepping to the left and stepping to the right and really trying to maintain this kind of 360 degree view, but not all at once, but just playing with it, moving and seeing it from all these different perspectives. And with that said, I'm wondering if you can maybe share a little bit more about the space awareness practice and how that might fit into what you're talking about.
Speaker 4:Mm , yeah. Well, I think , um, just this recognition that, you know, space is actually an element just like fire, water, earth. An air space is also an element that we use and that we collaborate with all the time. And that's not necessarily obvious to it us because it's literally, you know, like the water, you know, that we're swimming in, so to speak mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so there's this way in which we often just conceptualize space. I think we have a lot of language around space, right? Like, you know, I feel like I can't take up space, or I want space, or I need it, or give me my space, or all of these things. Hmm . But that's just really a conceptualization of space of what is it like to actually know that we are space and it's an element that we utilize just like all of the other elements. And what is it like when we turn toward that as a resource and something that is available and helpful to us, and also quite vast. And also to na tunnel's point, I think that in that conceptualization of space , uh, we often use it as a commodity, right? Like, we decide who gets it, who doesn't get it. I can kick you out of it. I can punish you with it. <laugh> . I can put you in a small box called a prison and keep you from space, or I can award you. And when you're privileged and you can have a huge mansion, you can have all the space. You can have an island <laugh>. You know? So there's this way in which when we disrespect space, I would say in that kind of way that we're, we're harming one another and there's this way that we could really utilize it to our benefit. That it's actually not something that we can piece up and cut up and give to people and kick people out of, but it's something for everyone. And what is it to actually claim the territory of our space and really honor it by collaborating with it? And that does though require us having rest, <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> . The time to actually investigate what is our relationship with space, and also what are the ways in which we're afraid of space. Right? You know, like when we look at it from that big absolute like cosmic, it's terrifying space and it can make us feel really small and really, really ins sequential. And so that's to a lot of what I think around that narrowing is that solidification, we wanna do those things because we're, we're really afraid of being smaller. We're really afraid of being spacious and our full self. And what are the implications if there really is enough room and space for everybody, right? Like, what does that actually mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so yeah, I do a lot of practices where we're really engaging with space, not so much on that conceptual framework, but really as an element. And we utilize the wisdom of the body in order to, to also connect with that and to really slow down and really say what is the object? And also what is the space, as Anton was saying. So yeah, that's just a little snippet. Mm-hmm .
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Well, you want to go Daniel, or you want me to go? I'm happy for you to go shoot <laugh> <laugh> . Uh , well , uh, I'm caught a little off guard and I shouldn't be because I knew we were doing this , um, <laugh> and I actually sat down ahead of time with a little piece of note paper and didn't write a darn thing on it. <laugh> . So, space, space is it actually, you know , um, <laugh> , uh, I taught a retreat all weekend, and so very little space in my weekend. I didn't get much of a weekend. And, and so when I got back, you know, all I wanted to do was have a root beer and have pizza and watch a movie <laugh>. And I re-watched The Martian with Matt Damon speaking of space. And man, I just, I loved this movie. You know, it's a good well-made movie. You know, it's got some clever lines that , you know , I don't think that's it. It was something about hope He's stranded on Mars, his team has left because they think he's dead. He's got some stuff that he can work with to survive, but it's, you know, it's the most difficult survival, you know , situation. We can imagine. Pretty much. He figures out how to grow potatoes and <laugh> , you know , the whole thing. He's a botanist and it's really great, but at a certain point people realize that he's not dead. And it's a question about do we go back and get him and do we leave a person on a planet? Because it's hard because it will cost a million dollars. A million dollars is probably low <laugh> way low a billion. It will cost a billion dollars. <laugh> and his crew mates are already, you know, 500 days out heading home and turning a spaceship around is a bigger deal than turning a , you know, a ship around in the ocean, you know? Hmm . Much bigger. And they're deciding not to tell 'em and blah, blah, blah. But once that crew finds out, they're turning the ship around, even against orders, and they're going back to get him, and people are doing the math, the crazy math that it would take to try to get him off the planet, not run outta resources, get him home, and every window there is so narrow, everything is a long shot. Everybody's survival is at risk to try to do this. And I felt like I've always been fighting this notion of this survival of the fittest. You know, when I used to read about evolution, you know, many, many years ago, it was always this survival of the fittest thing , you know? And if the weak , they don't get to survive, you know? And we leave them behind. And the more I learned about evolution, the more I learned that that was false. That there is not really evidence for that. The evidence is to the contrary, that even in the most dire circumstances in our deepest past, and we see this from the archeological evidence, you know, the bone evidence, especially a particular person who was must have been mauled by a lion. The marks are, you know, in the bone damages in their leg. But what we learned from that body was that person was mauled and probably would not be able to walk or take care of themselves for about two years. And yet they healed, which meant the tribe and tribes then were 12 to tops 40 people, but usually kind of 12 to 20 people, those people picked him up and carried him, and probably for the next couple years until he could heal. That's the evidence. And so survival of a , the fittest was a , a thing that Herbert Spencer added to Darwin's ideas, but were not in Darwin's natural selection ideas. And the adding of that notion, survival of the fittest, abandoned the weak , led to eugenics. You know, and it's not in evidence, it's not what humans do. And as I'm watching this film, they're making this ridiculous effort to turn around to save this one man when it's not reasonable. If it is not rational, but they're gonna do it. And you can say, well, that's just a movie, but we dreamed that movie. That's what made a good movie. That's who we want to be. So it's reflected there on another scale. You know, we will and do go into space now, and I hope that we always make that human choice. And it gave me a lot of hope. And the , um, anthropologist Margaret Mead, when she was asked the question, you know, when does civilization start? Does it start with bone tools or whatever? She used the example of the taking care of that person who had been mauled by the lion. Hmm . She said, that's when civilization starts. And so I look at the movie, and it was amazing from the perspective of problem solving. Like he solved amazing problems in fantastic ways and in ways that are, you know, more or less accurate. They were possible. But they took gathering all, all our potential, all our science. And I looked at that and I thought, we have all the capacity we need to survive our current immaturity, except the maturity to survive our immaturity. It's not a technological problem. We can save ourselves technologically and from intellectual capacity. It's a character issue and the character that we need to survive that is in that act, which we've done in the deepest past, and which we're doing as we imagine this future where we ask the question, who do I want to be? I want to be the person that risked to save someone. So that's my reflection on that. And that's a big deal to me. That's , I think about this all the time, <laugh>. So there's my thing, space <laugh>,
Speaker 3:It's making me think of this little teaching from the Talmud where they say, to save a single life is to save the entire universe.
Speaker 2:Yeah .
Speaker 3:That's all I got. That <laugh> , that's what it's making me think of.
Speaker 2:<laugh> .
Speaker 3:<laugh> ,
Speaker 4:Yeah. What's coming up for me is the willingness to just kind of abandon the logic. I feel like that also is sometimes that's where I feel like my most human and my most kind of available for my humanity is when I'm actually willing to be like, this doesn't make any sense, but it's just a knowing and a feeling inside of me, and kind of an allegiance to take care, to take care of something, to take care of someone no matter what. And to be that, you know, that courageous, but in that moment, and you don't even need courage. You're just already doing it. And like, nothing's gonna stop you, actually. And that to me is like the more visceral feeling of like what it it means to be alive and to be a human and to, to be doing this, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And , and then there's an interesting thing that comes up in the movie, because people are saying you're abandoning logic. Hmm . You're abandoning reason. But it's through logic and reason that all the survival situations that they activate are accomplished. And it , it reminds me of this thing, you know, that I like to say all the time , is that we are not rational beings. We are non-rational beings with a rational faculty. And so it's like, what are we gonna put our reasons toward? What are we gonna give that faculty for? So the people, they make a heart decision, right? You know, the tal quote is, in time you'll save the world. Mm-hmm . You save the one person that's in time, you'll save the world. So they choose to save the world by saving that one person, but then they utilize all kinds of reason to accomplish the act. You know? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . There's something about that, about being human. We have to figure out how we want to be human, which kinds of humans.
Speaker 3:Hmm . Yeah. And what you're both saying, I'm thinking about what we think of as beautiful and what really moves us. To your point, Carlo , what is that visceral feeling of desire, beauty, and how we have this deep attraction to this kind of irrational, over the top striving to do something amazing for justice or for people We love something that, for most intents and purposes doesn't make sense to do, but will walk across vast distances to go meet somebody or to deliver a letter back in the day out of something that is beyond logic, out of this deep heart yearning. And it seems like there's may be an intuitive knowing of the preciousness of a single life or a single person, and how that's what we think of as beautiful. We have this obsession that has grown in different times of like romantic love notions. And all of our music is so deeply about love and movies and all the things. We have this kind of obsession with these romantic notions of love. And not just romantic love, but love for our family or friends, these kind of extraordinary feats that are driven by love.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The, the other story wasn't worth telling. Oh, he was still alive. They left him there <laugh> . It was not reasonable to go back. There's no movie. We don't want to tell that story. No. <laugh> . It's not worth telling.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And there's something inhuman. Yeah . This cold calculated thing. There's something that feels inhuman about that. Mm-hmm .
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's not a story worth telling. That's a kind of logical decision that would lead to an existence that we're not actually that interested in having. Mm-hmm . It's a wonder that anybody makes an argument about it. Yes. It , you know, it evolves, you know, risk to your own lives. But this is what I find profound about the movie stuff, is like, it tells us something about us. There is no movie <laugh> about the other, you know , <laugh> . It's not a story we want to have. That's the story of despondency.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Carla, do you have any, anything else you wanted to share on this?
Speaker 4:Well, I think in the way to the story that's not being told, it's just, it's not the story of who we really are. You know? And I think of that story, I'm like, that's a nightmare. And I think we know that that's the end of us. Mm . Right. That story is is the end because it means that there is no love that we have gone too far over into the logical side of things. The misuse of logic, I would say. Mm . And so, yeah, I think we don't tell those stories because it isn't reflective of anything that we are. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Top that. Daniel <laugh>, the Martian.
Speaker 4:What you got? Daniel <laugh>.
Speaker 3:Will you all just gimme one second. I need some water. Yeah. That I failed to bring with me.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. <laugh> , you know who needed some water? Matt Damon needed some water on that planet <laugh> .
Speaker 4:I bet. Oh my gosh, you're making me wanna see that now because I haven't seen it
Speaker 2:So good.
Speaker 4:But you're quite the advertisement for it. <laugh>.
Speaker 2:That's all I had. <laugh> . Yeah ,
Speaker 4:It's amazing.
Speaker 3:If
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Speaker 3:So it's funny that you bring this up tonal in the previous conversation about space because my topic has something to do with space as well. I have a whole little mini conglomeration of thoughts, so I don't know how articulate it will be, but I will throw them all out in a jumble and task you both with teasing them out, hopefully <laugh> . I'm thinking about the planet Earth itself as a kind of core connecting point and maybe metaphor for inter spirituality and beyond inter spirituality, really humanity and global cooperation and hopefully harmony. And our teacher, Reb Zalman spoke a lot about the impact on consciousness of the first viewing of Earth from space, which was long before I was born. So it's something I inherited images that I grew up seeing, being familiar with that and taking that for granted, but found it really powerful. First encountering Salman's thoughts on this of how monumental it was to see unequivocally earth from space as a single unit. And it's so plainly obvious viewing it from space. And this has brought up a very interesting, weird experience. I had one time of interacting with a channel named Bashar, who I saw talking, and the audience was asked if we had any questions. And without having any question, I just raised my hand because I wanted to ask a question. And I was chosen to ask this question. And the first stop, best stop , as we say, came up and I asked him, is Jesus your homeboy? I don't know why I asked this <laugh> , but that was my question for this channel, because you were 19 <laugh>? Uh , yeah, probably about that age <laugh> . And honestly, I don't remember much of the response. Partly because the experience of interacting with this channel was less verbal and more like certain frequency got turned up in my mind and felt like something was being communicated. But I didn't really hear the words that came out. But what I do remember him saying is that, yes, I'm very familiar with the Christ consciousness, Buddha nature, CNA spirit. It's how I communicate with your planet . And he asked if I understood after saying many more things. And I felt like I did understand, and I reflected back, is what you're saying, that this Christ consciousness, Buddha nature, Krishna spirit, is the unique frequency of the planet Earth. And he said yes. And ever since that time, it's been spinning around my head a little bit, this idea of what is the particular frequency, the particular soul of the planet Earth. And furthermore, in terms of inter spirituality, is it one way to understand illuminated teachers or prophets or masters , et cetera, that they are somehow attuning to the particular frequency of the planet Earth and becoming more pure reflections of that energy. This kind of language often gets talked about in terms of God becoming transparent to, or a channel for the light of God, if you will . But what if we kind of flip that metaphor and think of it more on the earth-based and more in line with earth-based spiritualities that are really more about attuning to mother earth, thinking about it, it makes sense in terms of these metaphors of a snowflake or individual souls, that there's this sense that we're all made up of the same substance, and yet that substance configures itself in unique ways. And that of all the billions and trillions and infinite number of stars and planets and galaxies in the universe, thinking about what is unique about the planet and how that is all of our birthright. We are earth beings as the tree fruits, the earth peoples, as Alan Watt says. So that is my mess of thoughts thinking about the earth and the uniqueness of earth and earth as an interspiritual connecting point. And again, beyond inter spirituality or anything like that, really just for humanity. So work with that. Y'all . <laugh>,
Speaker 2:Go
Speaker 3:Ahead, Natana .
Speaker 2:Okay . Well , I mean that was bringing up a myriad of thoughts for me too, you know, but I think there was a , an overriding theme. I think your response that perhaps that Christ consciousness or whatever, however it might be called, is the unique frequency of the planet. That's a very interesting idea. 'cause in a way it's saying , um, the universal connection, wisdom, consciousness is what holds the planet together as long as it holds together. And if it's to hold together, and this wisdom consciousness has a character. And I guess I first started to think about the philosopher and, and mystic , uh, te de mm-hmm <affirmative> . And , and his idea that over time the planet would achieve consciousness and kind of universal connectivity, you know, and in , in some ways it seems like he was predicting, you know, the internet, <laugh>, <laugh> , you know, and that's one of the ways in which Alman who you mentioned, like to frame that. But I think there's something more there. Um, I've got two ideas I want to connect. Um, one, there's an idea in Kabbalah of the Neite mm-hmm <affirmative> . The general or universal soul. And it's sometimes thought that, you know, these great spiritual teachers are universal souls. Mm-hmm . And what's meant in Kabbalah is that they have a capacity to connect to many types of people, or many types of people can connect through them. So they're like a plugin to which you can plug many different kind of prongs. They're that power source. And that's kind of what makes them universal teachers, because there are teachers out there that like can only connect with one type of, of student, but then some people connect with many types of people. And so, you know, maybe what is active in that universal soul that Nima kli is this connectedness to this more universal frequency of the planet. You know? And so it can connect with all these different types. And it's, it's something that we say about prophets, that prophet is not a predictor. Prophecy is not about prediction. It's about , um, at least in Hebrew, the, the word Avi means to call or proclaim. And in its root looks like it is related to , uh, the idea of being a channel. If you become hollow like a reed , you know, and you cut certain holes in there, you become the flute through which God plays as it were. It's an idea that's SM two . And when we connect this to prophecy that , uh, the prophet is a voice for humanity, a voice for the planet. And that's why in Judaism at least, and more and more it's accepted that the prophetic voice is the voice that speaks for justice, for wholeness. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But there's a particular character to that voice that it is listening to the voice of the planet and humanity. And so it speaks for and through the whole, and in terms of activism, it's not prophetic to just go pound out your opinion about how things should be. It's prophetic when you're speaking for the planet for its needs and listening to those needs and all the diversity of voices. And they're getting channeled into this kind of one voice that really can speak for the whole and wholeness. And so that's coming all together for me. There is probably a unified message and a unifying message that comes through the diversity, but you have to listen to all the diversity to get it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And , and maybe that's the voice of our entire planet. You know ,
Speaker 3:You have to enter the Lorax consciousness.
Speaker 2:Yes. <laugh>. Exactly.
Speaker 4:Wait, y'all need to talk to me about this Lorax consciousness. <laugh>, what are you referring to
Speaker 2:Daniel?
Speaker 3:Well, just the Dr. Seuss story of the Lorax. Oh, I am the Lorax. I speak for the trees
Speaker 2:<laugh>. Mm-hmm .
Speaker 3:Just that idea.
Speaker 4:I see. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We bought a really cool t-shirt in Denver and it had this kind of creature on it that was made up of all these things that are in Denver, all these cool shops. And it says, I am the Colfax. I speak for the streets. Ah ,
Speaker 4:Yes . <laugh>
Speaker 2:And Colfax is this Long street in Denver that has all these diverse kinds of shops on it, and tattoo shops and cupcake shops really <laugh> . It was great.
Speaker 4:It's a good shout out for Denver. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:But that is an idea that's out there that aggregates have consciousness as such mm-hmm <affirmative> . Trees, you know, cities, there's aggregate consciousness there. And like cities have character, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . New York City, San Francisco. They're very different cities and their character and their consciousness. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . I think there's something there.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think there's something there. Definitely. It makes me think of the astrocartography where based on like when you were born, there's different places on the earth that will have different lessons in life for you depending on, you know, the land that you're on. And I definitely, you know, feel those different vibes when I do travel to different places and these different peaks in the different mountains. And the, there are different sorts of expressions. And I do feel there's more, you know, divine masculine energies that come from certain mountain ranges, and there's more divine feminine energies that come from certain places. And you know, I know that there's a lot of people who are very much attuned to that. And different spiritual centers are usually organized around these different qualities of the earth and the land and the different flavors that she emanates. Something that came up for me is, you know, I always think of Gaia like the mother, like the mama goddess. And yet like the people who like represent her voice, you know, it's like Christ consciousness or Buddha. I'm like, where are like the women who are like embodying the mother and mother consciousness? I think that that came up for me. I just think it's like very, very fascinating that it feels like there's this little bit of a patriarch takeover of like, who represents the voice of the earth, you know? I mean , um, So I just wanted to like throw that in the mix. Uh, and I'm totally down with Buddha and Christ and all the things, but as you find it fascinating of who speaks for the consciousness of the earth. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah .
Speaker 2:<laugh> . Yeah. Let's throw some others out there. It could have been like, you know, Mary consciousness, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well maybe I would've got that if I asked, is Mary your homegirl?
Speaker 4:Is Mary your homegirl? Yeah. <laugh>.
Speaker 2:Because
Speaker 3:Part of my question is at that time there was these shirts that were very popular and one was Jesus is my homeboy and had a , you know, little Jesus figure and another one that said, Mary is my home girl and had a little virgin Mary. So maybe if I posed my question in a less patriarchal way, I would've gotten a less patriarchal answer.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I think this goes back to though of like, know it's the union and where do we as humans still wanna say like, it's masculine or feminine or, you know, the earth represents this, but it's like it's whole, it's like all of it, you know, it isn't actually like one or the other. It's a type of whole consciousness that doesn't have to be like, parsed out. And it has, it has all of those aspects, you know? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah.
Speaker 3:I liked what you were saying, Carla, bringing in this idea that different places on the earth have this particular energy. 'cause I think mm-hmm <affirmative> . Talking about perspective, that's what I'm thinking about in terms of the earth. In the same way that different places on earth have different energies. Earth itself has a different energy than Mars, than Venus. Yes . The Milky Way maybe has a different energy than other galaxies. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And it's hard for us to really conceive of that, I think. And part of what I'm thinking about is that some of what we project onto the universe is maybe more about earth as a particularity, because we only know the universe through the medium of earth. One way I'm thinking about it is that light is universal and yet love might not be. And how this kind of particular role of the earth or humanity as a kind of Lorax of the earth, <laugh> our kind of role is this transmutation of a kind of universal light into a universal love. And as I'm saying that, I don't, I don't know if I even agree with myself 'cause love does feel that it pervades the entire universe, but it feels like maybe, I don't know something particular about Earth and how do we really know the universe other than through earth as earth beings.
Speaker 2:I can't remember which book it's in, but CS Lewis's space trilogy than one of them. There's a description of the planets with these very specific characters, <laugh> it's whole thing about that. Yeah . And what is the character of this planet? It's an interesting thought.
Speaker 4:And we're all rotating, you know, around the sun. I mean, that's like the governor of things, you know? So even that itself to like centralize, we centralize like, oh, earth, earth in retrospect to all these other planets. But really it's, everything is actually like in retrospect to the sun, to this light source. And I think like that we forget that as well and still centralize even earth, you know, like you were saying, Daniel, but really the sun is the center <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> .
Speaker 3:Yeah . For for our solar system.
Speaker 4:Yeah. For our solar system.
Speaker 2:Yeah . And I was thinking about like these kind of , um, archetypal forms that embody our aggregate consciousness. And we were naming the , you know , these ones, you know, these male ones. But I think a lot about, in particular about the Virgin of Guadalupe and how unique a phenomenon it is, the kind of adoration that belongs to her. Hmm . Uh , you know, there's a whole story behind the Virgin of Guadalupe, but Guadalupe is a place in Spain and what's kind of being remembered or referenced, there is a particular icon of the Virgin Mary that existed in this place in Spain. And it was really a doo like a porcelain doo , the virgin of Guadalupe <laugh>. But in Mexico, it becomes a totally different thing where the Virgin of Guadalupe appears to Juan Diego, this peasant, you know, of indigenous heritage in a period where the country is being colonized and what is she when she appears to him, but a fusion, a mestiza , you know, a mixed race person that is representing both nansen , the , uh, indigenous goddess of that particular place. But now she's dressed in new clothes, these Spanish clothes, and she looks a little bit indigenous and a little bit European. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so it's like, this is not even a person like Guadalupe was a doll in a way, <laugh> representing Mary. And now there's this kind of visionary experience of what seems like a person who represents the coming together of indigenous peoples and European peoples. And she's a unifying figure. And now she's jumped out of Catholicism. Like you'll find her all over the place. Not just Christians have icons of the Virgin of Guadalupe. And so I think these unifying archetypal figures that represent human consciousness and how we can come together emerge mm-hmm <affirmative> . And aggregate by themselves. And then they , they grow beyond their limited places of origin.
Speaker 4:I just love you bringing this in, these symbols. I think coming back to, you know, what I started with around like, how do we hold this complexity? And yet we have these figures that can never be solidified into one thing, you know? And then just continue actually to become more vast and more expansive as they go to include this kind of like beyond, you know, as soon as you think it's a thing, then it's gonna go beyond. Now we're gonna take it outta Catholicism and now we're gonna take it outta this geography, and now we're gonna take it out of this race or this religion or this. And yet there's still a , a particular sort of quality that we can feel that's a universal emanation from a figure like Guadalupe mm-hmm <affirmative> . So I think more of that, you know mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like going toward that sort of symbology.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And if there's to be some kind of icon of the planet, like an embodiment of the earth, it seems only right that it would be a conglomeration, an amalgamation. Similarly to the way a dragon is traditionally comprised of all of these different kinds of beings, the talons of a eagle and snake-like, but with feathers and et cetera, that it would be some kind of amalgamated and yet unified being that would have all of these representations of different cultures and places and naton , I might charge you as an amazing visual artist to Ooh , dream of this kind of archetypal figure. So homework. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I do dream that because we need these figures to represent us, and when they don't represent us, there's a kind of disconnect. Mm-hmm . Yeah . You know, like white Jesus emerged for a white population, you know, 'cause Jesus certainly wasn't white <laugh>. Um, and then this white Jesus emerges, and now we can look back at that and go, that's problematic to impose that. But where we're going on the planet, if we do survive is kind of back to where we came from. Because in Africa, the suggestion is that we were probably a mid brown people and now all that variation happened from, you know, geographic separation. But as we merge again, we're gonna be a mid brown people. And, and maybe all our archetypal figures will need to be mid brown again. <laugh>,
Speaker 4:I'm down with that. Yeah. <laugh> .
Speaker 2:And, you know, some of the more extreme representations will , will lose some relevance, even if they were accurate. But, you know, white Jesus was never accurate. <laugh>
Speaker 4:<laugh> .
Speaker 2:But even if they were accurate, they could lose relevance to amid brown people or they'll have a different significance. You know, in the seventies it became important to have a black Jesus. Just 'cause we, we have to see ourselves represented in order to connect and connect through. So it's gonna be interesting where, where our archetypes go naturally, organically. Mm-hmm
Speaker 4:<affirmative> .
Speaker 2:Uh , I'll take the charge, I will make those icons. <laugh> . Yes.
Speaker 3:Well, an exploration of space and complexity all the way around, it seems <laugh> . So go team in terms of very little planning and good cohesion.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Actually totally unplanned and in the middle seeing the theme, like I wrote down Space Travel with Carla Burns. <laugh>.
Speaker 4:<laugh> . Do it .
Speaker 2:That's the episode.
Speaker 4:<laugh> . Great . Love it.
Speaker 3:So again, thank you so much Carla for joining us for this wide ranging chat back and forth. And to close us out, I'm wondering if you have a little something to share, be it a poem or a song or a quote.
Speaker 4:Yeah , I , I have this lovely calendar that I love that's called We Moon . So more on that space theme, <laugh> <laugh> . So Daniel, when you set a poem, I thought, well, I'll just get something from my we moon calendar because it's filled with poetry and things about the cosmos and the mother earth actually. Beautiful. And so this is a poem by Julia Flynn from the We Moon. And it's called The Journey. You Were Not Born to be a Machine child. Can't you feel the life inside of you, the wildness that is your inheritance buried like the bones of your ancestors and all they created awaiting your excavation? Can you hear their voices beckoning? They're with you deep within the hollowed cave inside your chest. That is where the path will lead you. And sometimes you'll fear the journey. Of course you will doubt. And then you might remember these words. And the way the sun warms your skin as it rises, the winds embrace the rocks beneath your feet and the ice cold water of the stream At night, you might build a fire and follow its embers as they ascend toward the fires burning in the heavens. And you will know this is where you are always meant to be.
Speaker 3:Hmm . Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Thank you. Lovely hanging out with you two psycho knots <laugh>. Until we meet again on
Speaker 5:This planet
Speaker 4:Or the next <laugh> <laugh> ,
Speaker 5:Shout out to friend of the show tree Fort of Golden Turtle sound for producing the intro and outro music and assisting with mixing and mastering. Be sure to check out as awesome music and hit up golden turtle sound for any of your audio engineering needs.